Snow Problems - anyone care to debate?

[[e-mail]]

Snow Problems - anyone care to debate?

Why are UK airports so ill-prepared for adverse weather?
How do Scandinavian countries cope?
Should UK airports have electric blanket type heating
on runways, taxiways and aprons.?
There has to be solutions surely?

[Jim Mason]

In article <2c1321b2-ecf2-44fe-9ed8-2f1e59793cb8
@s9g2000vby.googlegroups.com>, ***@googlemail.com says...

Post by ***@hotmail.com
Snow Problems - anyone care to debate?
Why are UK airports so ill-prepared for adverse weather?
How do Scandinavian countries cope?
Should UK airports have electric blanket type heating
on runways, taxiways and aprons.?
There has to be solutions surely?

Amazingly the OP has been suggesting elsewhere that EDI being closed is
because BAA are deliberately try to keep GLA open at EDI's expense.

"One gets the impression that BAA has thrown all it's snow clearing
resources at that airport in an effort to keep at least one of it's
Scottish airports open. No surprise that that one airport is
it's Scottish airports registered office?"

Nothing at all to do with the fact Edinburgh has just suffered the worst
snowfalls since 1963?

[[e-mail]]

Post by Jim Mason
Nothing at all to do with the fact Edinburgh has just suffered the worst
snowfalls since 1963?

Or Gatwick being snow-closed and no doubt others to follow?
It's not about individual airports, one would suspect your motives
after you changed the headers for replies.?
Hopefully folk will debate rather than pursue your usenet vendetta.

[Jim Mason]

In article <56b9cb6f-d0fa-48bf-9692-36940439f708
@g26g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, ***@googlemail.com says...

Post by ***@hotmail.com

Post by Jim Mason
Nothing at all to do with the fact Edinburgh has just suffered the worst
snowfalls since 1963?

Or Gatwick being snow-closed and no doubt others to follow?

Certainly nothing to do with BAA.

Jim

[Dawn Khorus]

Post by ***@hotmail.com
Snow Problems - anyone care to debate?
Why are UK airports so ill-prepared for adverse weather?
How do Scandinavian countries cope?
Should UK airports have electric blanket type heating
on runways, taxiways and aprons.?
There has to be solutions surely?

stay at home

[[e-mail]]

Post by Dawn Khorus

Post by ***@hotmail.com
Snow Problems - anyone care to debate?
Why are UK airports so ill-prepared for adverse weather?
How do Scandinavian countries cope?
Should UK airports have electric blanket type heating
on runways, taxiways and aprons.?
There has to be solutions surely?

stay at home

Or book a room at the airport? :-)

[Jim Mason]

In article <324b0148-8980-4936-8784-c6258beec802
@l20g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>, ***@googlemail.com says...

Post by ***@hotmail.com

Post by Dawn Khorus

Post by ***@hotmail.com
Snow Problems - anyone care to debate?
Why are UK airports so ill-prepared for adverse weather?
How do Scandinavian countries cope?
Should UK airports have electric blanket type heating
on runways, taxiways and aprons.?
There has to be solutions surely?

stay at home

Or book a room at the airport? :-)

At the airport you claim the owners are deliberately trying to keep shut
whilst keeping another open? Poor advice surely?

[Runge 125 1/2]

Thank you michaelnewport, what a useful post !

Post by ***@hotmail.com
Snow Problems - anyone care to debate?
Why are UK airports so ill-prepared for adverse weather?
How do Scandinavian countries cope?
Should UK airports have electric blanket type heating
on runways, taxiways and aprons.?
There has to be solutions surely?

stay at home

[William Black]

Post by ***@hotmail.com
Snow Problems - anyone care to debate?
Why are UK airports so ill-prepared for adverse weather?
How do Scandinavian countries cope?
Should UK airports have electric blanket type heating
on runways, taxiways and aprons.?
There has to be solutions surely?

Of course there are.

But they cost a great deal of money and would be needed once a decade.

It's cheaper for the airport to close.

[Jim Mason]

Post by William Black
It's cheaper for the airport to close.

In this case purely a safety issue - nothing to do with costs - though I
fully appreciate what you mean. BAA invested over £1m in new snow clearing
equipment at EDI after last years `freak` winter weather on the basis it
might return in the future - this year has seen the worst snow conditions
at EDI since 1963 - last year has paled into insignificance - but still it
couldn't cope. No part of the transport infrastructure was able to cope
with the onslaught in the east of Scotland.

Though the OP's suggestion elsewhere that BAA were deliberately making sure
EDI was kept closed so as to benefit their other Scottish interests is
quite embarrassing.

[Jim Mason]

Post by Jim Mason

Post by William Black
It's cheaper for the airport to close.

In this case purely a safety issue - nothing to do with costs - though I
fully appreciate what you mean. BAA invested over £1m in new snow clearing
equipment at EDI after last years `freak` winter weather on the basis it
might return in the future - this year has seen the worst snow conditions
at EDI since 1963 - last year has paled into insignificance - but still it
couldn't cope. No part of the transport infrastructure was able to cope
with the onslaught in the east of Scotland.
Though the OP's suggestion elsewhere that BAA were deliberately making sure
EDI was kept closed so as to benefit their other Scottish interests is
quite embarrassing.

It would appear BAA were also responsible for the closure of the Forth Road
Bridge for 8 hours, closure of the M8 motorway and total disruption of the
railway network.

BAA were also responsible for allowing GLA to remain open whilst allowing
all of this

"Several European Airports, including Copenhagen, Helsinki, Oslo, Munich,
Warsaw, Tallinn, and many others have been closed temporarily due to this
extraordinary weather blown in from Siberia."

(Source: Reuters)

"Northern sections of many German autobahns have been affected by the
adverse weather conditions leading to some becoming impassable, or major
traffic congestion."

"Road networks in Denmark, Poland, and the Baltic States have also ground
to a halt because of the unremitting snow and icy conditions."

(Source: BBC 24 News)

YRCMIU

[Michael Bell]

Post by Jim Mason

Post by William Black
It's cheaper for the airport to close.

In this case purely a safety issue - nothing to do with costs - though I
fully appreciate what you mean. BAA invested over £1m in new snow clearing
equipment at EDI after last years `freak` winter weather on the basis it
might return in the future - this year has seen the worst snow conditions
at EDI since 1963 - last year has paled into insignificance - but still it
couldn't cope. No part of the transport infrastructure was able to cope
with the onslaught in the east of Scotland.
Though the OP's suggestion elsewhere that BAA were deliberately making sure
EDI was kept closed so as to benefit their other Scottish interests is
quite embarrassing.

That's an allegation about MOTIVES, and unless there are internal
memos to prove the point, we can only speculate about motives. But
there is nothing wrong in deciding to concentrate resources on one
airport, the one with the fewer problems.

But seeining Newcastle has been kept at least partly open, though with
difficulty, and it is also on the east side, which has had the worst
snow, and there is no easy alternative to Newcastle as there is to
Edinburgh.

Michael Bell




--

[Jim Mason]

Post by Michael Bell
But seeining Newcastle has been kept at least partly open, though with
difficulty, and it is also on the east side, which has had the worst
snow, and there is no easy alternative to Newcastle as there is to
Edinburgh.

The snow in Newcastle was nowhere near as heavy or as concentrated as it
was and still is in Edinburgh.

[pete]

Post by Jim Mason

Post by William Black
It's cheaper for the airport to close.

In this case purely a safety issue - nothing to do with costs - though I
fully appreciate what you mean. BAA invested over £1m in new snow clearing
equipment at EDI after last years `freak` winter weather on the basis it
might return in the future - this year has seen the worst snow conditions
at EDI since 1963 - last year has paled into insignificance - but still it
couldn't cope. No part of the transport infrastructure was able to cope
with the onslaught in the east of Scotland.

I understand your point. But it's only a safety issue because the airport
operators don't have the equipment to allow them to operate safely during
snowstorms. If they were as prepared as, say, Anchorage then they'd still
be operating. However, if they *did* buy the equipment necessary there'd
be some gutter-journo somewhere running a shrill article about all the
"waste" (even for privately owned/operated airports) of having millions of
pounds worth of equipment that was hardly ever used.

[[e-mail]]

On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:22:42 GMT, pete <no-one_you-

Post by pete
However, if they *did* buy the equipment necessary there'd
be some gutter-journo somewhere running a shrill article about all the
"waste" (even for privately owned/operated airports) of having millions of
pounds worth of equipment that was hardly ever used.

The problem in the UK is that even gutter-journo's are reluctant to
take the biggest airport owner BAA to task. :-(

[Joe Curry]

On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:22:42 GMT, pete

Post by pete
However, if they *did* buy the equipment necessary there'd
be some gutter-journo somewhere running a shrill article about all the
"waste" (even for privately owned/operated airports) of having millions of
pounds worth of equipment that was hardly ever used.

The problem in the UK is that even gutter-journo's are reluctant to
take the biggest airport owner BAA to task. :-(

[[e-mail]]

Post by ***@hotmail.com
The problem in the UK is that even gutter-journo's are reluctant to
take the biggest airport owner BAA to task. :-(

Apologies for this and other duplicates..my server is playing-up... :-
(

[[e-mail]]

Post by pete
millions of
pounds worth of equipment that was hardly ever used.

It's early doors yet..are we headed for a new Ice Age? :-)

[Brian]

On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 10:22:42 GMT, pete

Post by pete

Post by Jim Mason

Post by William Black
It's cheaper for the airport to close.

In this case purely a safety issue - nothing to do with costs - though I
fully appreciate what you mean. BAA invested over £1m in new snow clearing
equipment at EDI after last years `freak` winter weather on the basis it
might return in the future - this year has seen the worst snow conditions
at EDI since 1963 - last year has paled into insignificance - but still it
couldn't cope. No part of the transport infrastructure was able to cope
with the onslaught in the east of Scotland.

I understand your point. But it's only a safety issue because the airport
operators don't have the equipment to allow them to operate safely during
snowstorms. If they were as prepared as, say, Anchorage then they'd still
be operating. However, if they *did* buy the equipment necessary there'd
be some gutter-journo somewhere running a shrill article about all the
"waste" (even for privately owned/operated airports) of having millions of
pounds worth of equipment that was hardly ever used.

In the 1970's, middle and south Georgia had a snow up to 17" and no
equipment to deal with it.
Haven't had anything like it since.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Brian
In the 1970's, middle and south Georgia had a snow up to 17" and no
equipment to deal with it.
Haven't had anything like it since

How long before it melted Brian?

[Brian]

Post by ***@hotmail.com

Post by Brian
In the 1970's, middle and south Georgia had a snow up to 17" and no
equipment to deal with it.
Haven't had anything like it since

How long before it melted Brian?

I don't remember exactly. I think it was about 4 or 5 days before
traffic could move. My wife, although I didn't know her then, was
supposed to drive to south Georgia from Atlanta which got no snow at
all. The parking lot attendant asked why she was leaving and when she
told him, he told her there was no way she could drive there.

[Joe Curry]

Post by Brian

Post by ***@hotmail.com
How long before it melted Brian?

I don't remember exactly. I think it was about 4 or 5 days before
traffic could move.

So much for the 'sub-tropics'. :-)

[[e-mail]]

Post by Brian

Post by ***@hotmail.com
How long before it melted Brian?

I don't remember exactly. I think it was about 4 or 5 days before
traffic could move.

So much for the 'sub-tropics'? :-)

[dagspot]

Post by ***@hotmail.com

Post by Brian
In the 1970's, middle and south Georgia had a snow up to 17" and no
equipment to deal with it.
Haven't had anything like it since

How long before it melted Brian?

Not exactly relevant to the circumstances at Turnhouse

[Neil Williams]

Post by Jim Mason
Though the OP's suggestion elsewhere that BAA were deliberately making sure
EDI was kept closed so as to benefit their other Scottish interests is
quite embarrassing.

I don't know if that is the case or not, but if you have two airports
in relatively close proximity and it is expensive/there is not enough
equipment to keep both of them open, it seems to make sense to me to
keep one of them open rather than neither, and for the one to be kept
open to be the larger one or the easier one to keep open.

That said, if that were the policy it would help if the airlines would
play along with it by diverting flights rather than just cancelling
them all.

Neil

[Joe Curry]

On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 03:40:32 -0800 (PST), Neil Williams

Post by Neil Williams
and for the one to be kept
open to be the larger one or the easier one to keep open.

Indeed. the larger one with more convenient/accessible access?

[[e-mail]]

Post by Neil Williams
the one to be kept
open to be the larger one or the easier one to keep open.

And the one more conveniently accessible for pax?

[dagspot]

Post by ***@hotmail.com

Post by Neil Williams
the one to be kept
open to be the larger one or the easier one to keep open.

And the one more conveniently accessible for pax?

or to maintain the jewel in the crown prestigious intercontinental
routes ?

[Neil Williams]

Post by dagspot
or to maintain the jewel in the crown prestigious intercontinental
routes ?

It's more important to keep long-hauls going than European short-hauls
and domestics, because car, train and ferry can be options for short-
haul travel.

Neil

[Jim Mason]

In article <9f8a46ac-ff5d-4deb-a4bd-d574adb22321
@h16g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>, ***@gmail.com says...

Post by Neil Williams

Post by Jim Mason
Though the OP's suggestion elsewhere that BAA were deliberately making sure
EDI was kept closed so as to benefit their other Scottish interests is
quite embarrassing.

I don't know if that is the case or not, but if you have two airports
in relatively close proximity and it is expensive/there is not enough
equipment to keep both of them open, it seems to make sense to me to
keep one of them open rather than neither, and for the one to be kept
open to be the larger one or the easier one to keep open.

It might make sense but it isn't the case here. Both airports have their
own resources which are used totally independently of each other. The only
issue here was the fact that EDI had 5 times the amount of snowfall of GLA
- so much that even the new £1m worth of new snow clearing equipment was
still unable to keep EDI open. No BAA prioritising - no nonsensical BAA
conspiracy - simply the worst conditions at EDI since 1963.

Jim

[[e-mail]]

Post by Jim Mason
- so much that even the new £1m worth of new snow clearing equipment was
still unable to keep EDI open.

BAA are a monopoly airport owner and having new £1M of snow clearing
equipment would suggest replacements rather than additions..additions
that could be equally shared among it's Scottish interests.

[Jim Mason]

In article <e232efd1-7750-4eb8-980d-e0820af9be73
@p7g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, ***@googlemail.com says...

Post by Jim Mason
- so much that even the new £1m worth of new snow clearing equipment was
still unable to keep EDI open.

additions that could be equally shared among it's Scottish interests.

Indeed they could - but GLA didn't need any of the £1m of the new equipment
- it coped most of the time with the 1/5th of EDI's snowfall with what it
already had.

BTW your kill-file is SERIOUSLY broken.

If you need help how to configure it you only need to ask.

[Jack Campin - bogus address]

Post by Jim Mason

Post by Neil Williams
I don't know if that is the case or not, but if you have two airports
in relatively close proximity and it is expensive/there is not enough
equipment to keep both of them open, it seems to make sense to me to
keep one of them open rather than neither, and for the one to be kept
open to be the larger one or the easier one to keep open.

It might make sense but it isn't the case here. Both airports have their
own resources which are used totally independently of each other. The only
issue here was the fact that EDI had 5 times the amount of snowfall of GLA
- so much that even the new £1m worth of new snow clearing equipment was
still unable to keep EDI open. No BAA prioritising - no nonsensical BAA
conspiracy - simply the worst conditions at EDI since 1963.

Closed again today. There's a tremendous snowstorm going on. I think
there's still a bus running between here (8 miles out of town) and the
centre of Edinburgh, but I doubt it will be for long. The website for
the main bus company (lothianbuses.com) is down, and I suspect no news
is not good news.

At the moment, if you did succeed in flying in to EDI, you would most
likely get no further than the terminal building. I doubt if enough
staff can reach the airport to keep it operational. None of the bus
services in West Lothian are running.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile: [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Jim Mason]

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address

Post by Jim Mason

Post by Neil Williams
I don't know if that is the case or not, but if you have two airports
in relatively close proximity and it is expensive/there is not enough
equipment to keep both of them open, it seems to make sense to me to
keep one of them open rather than neither, and for the one to be kept
open to be the larger one or the easier one to keep open.

It might make sense but it isn't the case here. Both airports have their
own resources which are used totally independently of each other. The only
issue here was the fact that EDI had 5 times the amount of snowfall of GLA
- so much that even the new £1m worth of new snow clearing equipment was
still unable to keep EDI open. No BAA prioritising - no nonsensical BAA
conspiracy - simply the worst conditions at EDI since 1963.

Closed again today. There's a tremendous snowstorm going on.

GLA closed as well. It is gridlock on the roads, rail is shutting down what
was left on, the airports are shut and buses are off. PIK came to the
rescue allowing a huge number of flights inbound to GLA and PIK to land
there. The snow is heading in the direction of PIK now.

[Jim Mason]

Post by Jim Mason

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address

Post by Jim Mason

Post by Neil Williams
I don't know if that is the case or not, but if you have two airports
in relatively close proximity and it is expensive/there is not enough
equipment to keep both of them open, it seems to make sense to me to
keep one of them open rather than neither, and for the one to be kept
open to be the larger one or the easier one to keep open.

It might make sense but it isn't the case here. Both airports have their
own resources which are used totally independently of each other. The only
issue here was the fact that EDI had 5 times the amount of snowfall of GLA
- so much that even the new £1m worth of new snow clearing equipment was
still unable to keep EDI open. No BAA prioritising - no nonsensical BAA
conspiracy - simply the worst conditions at EDI since 1963.

Closed again today. There's a tremendous snowstorm going on.

GLA closed as well. It is gridlock on the roads, rail is shutting down what
was left on, the airports are shut and buses are off. PIK came to the
rescue allowing a huge number of flights inbound to GLA and PIK to land
there. The snow is heading in the direction of PIK now.

Inbound GLA and EDI that should have read.

[[e-mail]]

Inbound GLA and EDI that should have read.- Hide quoted text -

Edinburgh has problably suffered more closures this early winter than
it did for Volcanic Ash?

[Jim Mason]

In article <5414a89d-aed5-45ac-b069-ff2da6c9f5d3
@b25g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>, ***@googlemail.com says...

Post by ***@hotmail.com

Inbound GLA and EDI that should have read.- Hide quoted text -

Edinburgh has problably suffered more closures this early winter than
it did for Volcanic Ash?

And according to you it is a BAA conspiracy! YRCMIU

BTW your kill-file is broken.

[Joe Curry]

Post by Jim Mason
BTW your kill-file is broken.

Depending on right of reply...

[Jim Mason]

In article <***@4ax.com>, jcurry99
@googlemail.com says...

Post by Joe Curry

Post by Jim Mason
BTW your kill-file is broken.

Depending on right of reply...

You are displaying a level of retardation that I previously thought was
impossible from you.

[Joe Curry]

On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 14:02:07 -0000,

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Closed again today. There's a tremendous snowstorm going on.

Which might induce cries of "Our airport get's more snow than yours"?

[Joe Curry]

On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 22:23:52 +0000, William Black

Post by William Black

Post by ***@hotmail.com
There has to be solutions surely?

Of course there are.
But they cost a great deal of money and would be needed once a decade.
It's cheaper for the airport to close.

Apparently but airports in snow-ridden countries do not close too
often?

Geo-thermal heating might provide the answer?

http://platinum.ts.odu.edu/Apps/FAAUDCA.nsf/AcevesDADEFullProposal.pdf?OpenFileResource

[Windmill]

Post by ***@hotmail.com
Snow Problems - anyone care to debate?
Why are UK airports so ill-prepared for adverse weather?

Because it doesn't snow in the UK ? :-)

Post by ***@hotmail.com
How do Scandinavian countries cope?

Don't know if they do. I once watched teams of snow plows in echelon
formation going rapidly up and down the runway in YOW but failing to
keep the runway usable.
Eventually they gave up. Even the Canadians, who are used to it, can
be caught out by very heavy snowfalls.
(It was amusing to hear a Canadian woman ranting about the cancellation
of her flight. Obviously had no idea that an attempted takeoff in a
few feet of snow would be likely to be her last ever).

I once landed a small plane at the airstrip in Lac du Bonnet, Manitoba,
when there was (as I thought) just a light dusting of snow on the
runway.
There hadn't been much snow in Winnipeg, but this strip was downwind of
the lake (Lake Winnipeg? Lake Manitoba? Can't remember.)
Thought the plane was going to stand on its nosewheel for a few
long-drawn-out seconds.
_Not_ to be recommended.

Post by ***@hotmail.com
Should UK airports have electric blanket type heating
on runways, taxiways and aprons.?

I think you'd need a 1000 megawatt power station to do that.

Post by ***@hotmail.com
There has to be solutions surely?

Atomic power? That'd give vast amounts of very hot water or other
coolant which could be circulated under the tarmac.

[Jim Mason]

Post by Windmill

Post by ***@hotmail.com
Snow Problems - anyone care to debate?
Why are UK airports so ill-prepared for adverse weather?

Because it doesn't snow in the UK ? :-)

Post by ***@hotmail.com
How do Scandinavian countries cope?

Don't know if they do.

"Several European Airports, including Copenhagen, Helsinki, Oslo, Munich,
Warsaw, Tallinn, and many others have been closed temporarily due to this
extraordinary weather blown in from Siberia."

(Source: Reuters)

"Northern sections of many German autobahns have been affected by the
adverse weather conditions leading to some becoming impassable, or major
traffic congestion."

"Road networks in Denmark, Poland, and the Baltic States have also ground
to a halt because of the unremitting snow and icy conditions."

(Source: BBC 24 News)

[William Black]

Post by ***@hotmail.com
Snow Problems - anyone care to debate?
How do Scandinavian countries cope?

According to reports this week, no better than we do...

[[e-mail]]

Post by ***@hotmail.com
How do Scandinavian countries cope?

According to reports this week,  no better than we do...

And Canadian airports?

[[e-mail]]

On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 22:23:52 +0000, William Black

Post by William Black

Post by ***@hotmail.com
There has to be solutions surely?

Of course there are.
But they cost a great deal of money and would be needed once a decade.
It's cheaper for the airport to close.

Apparently but airports in snow-ridden countries do not close too
often?

Geo-thermal heating might provide the answer?

http://platinum.ts.odu.edu/Apps/FAAUDCA.nsf/AcevesDADEFullProposal.pdf?OpenFileResource

[Neil Williams]

Post by Joe Curry
Apparently but airports in snow-ridden countries do not close too
often?

Like, say, Geneva? Oh, that was closed for two days last week, and in
my view generally handles snowfall disruption poorly.

Neil

[[e-mail]]

Post by Joe Curry
Apparently but airports in snow-ridden countries do not close too
often?

Like, say, Geneva?  Oh, that was closed for two days last week, and in
my view generally handles snowfall disruption poorly.

Our present troubles don't seem so bad after all. :-)

[george]

Post by ***@hotmail.com
Snow Problems - anyone care to debate?
Why are UK airports so ill-prepared for adverse weather?
How do Scandinavian countries cope?
Should UK airports have electric blanket type heating
on runways, taxiways and aprons.?
There has to be solutions surely?

Of course, it all comes down to money. Are you willing to pay very
high prices for excellent snow removal (equipment and operators) when
it will be seldom used? I've seen airports like Chicago Ohare have 20
snow plows acting en echelon together to plow wide strips of the
pavement. And even though they can handle most snowfall, at least
once a year there is a closure of the airport. Of course the airlines
and the airport lose money if there are no flights, so there is an
economic incentive to provide an excellent snow removal system to keep
the airport open. I imagine the London airports would be driven by
similar needs, although with less snowfall each year the same level of
snow removal equipment wouldn't be needed. For a few times a year at
most they can't cope with the snowfall, which is similar to large
northern North American airports. Smaller UK airports with much less
air traffic will have less of a financial incentive to keep the
airports open.

If snow removal is of a paramount concern to you, lobby your
government representatives to use your tax money to do it. But they
might be more interested in plowing the roads than the airports.

George

[[e-mail]]

Post by george
If snow removal is of a paramount concern to you, lobby your
government representatives to use your tax money to do it. But they
might be more interested in plowing the roads than the airports.

I think the hundreds of thousands inconvenienced this week and those
concerned with the UK economy might agree.

Good reply George..